I'm so excited to have Jeff Gillman guest posting here at ITGO today! To give you a little background about Jeff's post, he asked me what I'd like him to write about. My first thought was "Anything you want! Like I'm gonna tell Jeff Gillman what to write..." but then I read an interview with him from the Minneapolis Star-Tribune in which the interviewer asks if there has been any backlash from the organic gardening community, and Jeff states that he doesn't want to be labeled "anti-organic" (for some reason, the interview is only available for paid subscribers now, otherwise I'd link to it.) Anyway, I asked Jeff if he wanted to expand on that line of thought, and he agreed. Okay, enough from me. Here's Jeff!
To put it simply I don't fall in line with the beliefs of hard-core organic enthusiasts. There is an organic dogma and a group of people out there -- and I'm not going to name any names -- who would have us believe that we're bad people if we feed our children produce that isn't organic, if we use any sort of a synthetic pesticide, or if we use any fertilizer that isn't "organic". I think that these people have gone way too far and I believe that science does not currently support the notion that all things organic are necessarily good...or even better than conventional. I am a strong proponent of not using chemicals at all, particularly in the garden (and here it's only appropriate for me to admit that I do use chemicals, though only rarely, in my garden and around my house -- most of the chemicals that I use are synthetic). After all, pesticides are poisons and so it isn't a good idea to expose
ourselves to them. In a commercial farm or orchard situation I believe that a minimum of chemicals should be used, but in this type of situation it is difficult to avoid using chemicals completely. And the thing is, once you decide to use chemicals the evidence that organic pesticides are necessarily safer than synthetics is weak, sometimes to the point of non-existence and is, in some cases, based largely on the fact that there's a lack of information about organic pesticides. People will claim that organics have a shorter residual...but the truth is that when you look at the studies that are out there (and there aren't many because organic pesticides are, for some reason, exempt from residual testing) residuals of organic pesticides can be found on fruits and veggies, same as synthetics. Also, some of the organic pesticides that are used, such as those containing copper, can have residual effects that include making the soil toxic to future plants if they're over applied because the copper can build up in the soil. Additionally, organic pesticides often need to be applied more often than synthetics which may cause problems. In other words, once pesticides enter the picture the terms organic and synthetic cease to have that much meaning, at least in terms of human and environmental health. We should be basing our decisions about pesticides on how effective and safe for us and the environment they are, not whether they are organic or synthetic. To say that we shouldn't use pesticides at all in our gardens and awns....that's something that we should strive for (though it may be a bit idealistic). To say that organic pesticides are usually
a better choice than synthetics....I can live with that. To say organic pesticides are always a better choice than synthetics....that's just wrong.
So does my calling attention to the problems of organics make me anti-organic? To some people it might. Does my calling attention to the fact that in some cases using a synthetic pesticide or fertilizer might be better for the environment or human health than using an organic one make me anti-organic? Once again, to some people it might. To me it doesn't. I welcome the role of critic and don't mind that label at all, but I think that the label anti-organic is overboard, and, to be honest, I fear it because it implies that I'm pro-synthetic. I'm not. Rather I'm pro-do the right thing for us and the environment which rarely includes applying a pesticide at all, especially in a garden setting. I'm pro-keep your plants healthy by using compost, watering properly, and planting the right plant for the right site so you don't need pesticides. I'm also pro-grow alternate hosts for beneficial insects, grow polycultures, and use a blast of water to wash off aphids. My goal is to help people think critically about what they're doing, not to attack organics, but undoubtedly some people won't see it this way, which is unfortunate, but probably inevitable.
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Thanks so much Jeff! I want to remind everyone that one lucky commenter will win a copy of
The Truth About Organic Gardening. In addition, Jeff told me he'll be monitoring this post today and answering questions, so this is a great opportunity to pick the brain of someone who truly knows what he's talking about. Let's keep him busy, OK?
Monday, March 24. 2008 at 12:15 (Link) (Reply)
Monday, March 24. 2008 at 13:07 (Reply)
Monday, March 24. 2008 at 13:02 (Link) (Reply)
Monday, March 24. 2008 at 13:37 (Link) (Reply)
Monday, March 24. 2008 at 14:37 (Link) (Reply)
In a similar vein, I know that I have always admired the idea of planting natives, and have stayed away from planting anything that might be invasive or aggressive. But another side of me doubted the thought that planting natives ONLY was a panacea for any of our modern day ills as some would make it out to be.
When I first read "Planting Design: Gardens in Time and Space" by Noel Kingsbury and Piet Oudolf, they address this issue in several places. My favorite one is when they say, in reference to the concepts of ecological and naturalistic planting:
"... these are aspects of our work. We do not wish to elevate them to the status of religious virtues or absolute truths." They argue that they do feel, however, that these concepts should INFORM their work, sometimes to a greater degree and sometimes to a lesser degree.
This more pragmatic approach really resonated with me, and gave voice to the things I was feeling. I would think that you could talk about the "concept" of "gardening with organics" (not the same as gardening organically, by the way) the same way--at least, for me. For example, I admit that I've used Holly-Tone for a couple of key plants when maybe I could have just used compost... but, darn it, I would rather maximize my blueberry production in my garden than to buy bagged frozen ones shipped in from somewhere else!
So, Jeff... since I've gone off in a tangent, any thoughts you want to share for us on the native vs. non-native issue?
Monday, March 24. 2008 at 16:47 (Link) (Reply)
Monday, March 24. 2008 at 18:49 (Link) (Reply)
Here's a couple of questions for you: have you had any backlash from the so-called "plant gurus" that you talk about in the book on plant remedies?
And with all the scary-making talk about problems with the world's food supplies, (and Big Chemical still insisting that they've got the answers), are you seeing large-scale growers making more of an effort to go to IPM (Integrated Pest Management, for those who don't know) or are they tending to stick with what they've always done? I've been poking around a wee bit in my province, talking to farmers, and some are making a real effort to go IPM or and reduce chemical use as much as possible. But it can be a challenge for large-scale growers, and as you point out organic remedies aren't necessarily any better for us and fellow creatures than the chemical solutions.
Monday, March 24. 2008 at 21:30 (Reply)
First the native non-native issue. As with organics I'm not a purist, but I do believe in using native plants as a general rule (I've planted plenty of both). It's not because natives perform better than introduced plants -- they may or they may not depending on the situation -- but instead because I like the idea of maintaining native ecosystems as much as possible -- just because they're unique in and of themselves.
In terms of Benjamin's question...darn straight we use too many chemicals! The way I see it most overuse of chemicals is because they're being used to maintain aesthetics -- why can't a rose have a little blackspot? Nature intended it this way. In my opinion we should leave problems that are primarily aesthetic alone unless they're actually threatening the life of the plant. In terms of genetically altered plants. There are certainly some problems here, but I think that most of them have to do with the danger of altered crops breeding with common weeds to form weeds that are resistant to our attempts to control them. I'm not particularly worried about eating these crops or about the effect of these crops on insect populations...at least not yet.
Jodi, I don't catch much flak from the personalities -- they mostly leave me alone. But I do catch some from the companies that produce some of the things that I write about. Sometimes they'll say "yes, but you haven't tried mine" and sometimes they'll just tell me I'm a dumba-- (In so many words...). Your question on IPM is a good one. I see large producers as very conscious of the chemicals they use. Chemicals are expensive and most growers prefer to avoid them as much as possible. I really don't see this as a new thing though. People have been trying to reduce pesticide and fertilizer use for years -- It's just that new chemicals and methods make recent efforts to reduce chemical use more effective.
I'll be happy to answer any follow-ups and check this site again tomorrow morning.
Jeff
Monday, March 24. 2008 at 23:23 (Link) (Reply)
Tuesday, March 25. 2008 at 07:34 (Link) (Reply)
Thanks for being the voice of reason in this sometimes crazy world of organic gardening!
And thanks Colleen for letting Jeff do a guest post on your blog!
Tuesday, March 25. 2008 at 09:03 (Link) (Reply)
Tuesday, March 25. 2008 at 09:55 (Reply)
Natural herbicides are fine as long as you understand their limitations. Clove oil is probably the best, but the others (garlic oil, vinegar, citrus) will all work. None will be as effective as Round-up. The thing is, all of these poisons are contact poisons -- they kill what they hit and that's it. If only one leaf is hit then you just killed one leaf. For small annual weeds this is fine, but try to control poison ivy vine, buckthorn, Japanese honeysuckle, or a large thistle and you're asking for many repeated applications before you kill the weed.
I'm glad to hear about your garden Yolanda. It sounds like your doing it all by hand which is great. Some people can't manage this for a variety of reasons (garden is too large, time, physical limitations) but for those who can it's the way to go. It's healthy, provides exercise, and avoids the use of chemicals which should always be seen as a last resort.
Hi Phillip, I teach the pesticide section of the Master Gardener Class here in Minnesota -- and to be honest I concentrate on the chemicals too -- though I'm starting to do it less. The reason that I concentrate on the chemicals so much is that many of the Master Gardeners will be working on a question and answer hotline where people will call in and ask for advice, and most of them will want to use a poison. This isn't a good reason for me to relegate non-pesticide information to such a small portion of my talk and I'm trying to incorporate more non-pesticide remedies -- the problem is that pesticides are usually the easiest way to control pests (though not usually the best). This year I began prefacing all of my sections (insecticides, herbicides, fungicides) with non-chemical control methods which work (hand weeding, mulch, spraying insects off of plants, removing diseased plants, etc.).
Thanks for writing, I'll continue to follow this post to see if there are other questions.
Jeff
Thursday, March 27. 2008 at 15:21 (Link) (Reply)
I agree with you that a pesticide is a killer how ever defined and I never use them prefering to toss the plant if non toxic remedies do not make a solution.
But I do not trust synthetic remedies and if others are going to persist in using pesticides I do prefer they stick to organics.
Why? The scientific community could not fiqure why organic gardening was succesful until recent advances in understanding soil biology. Testing consisted of growing in similar mediums with organic or synthetic fertilizers with synthetics winning out in such short term testing. Only after years of adding organic matter and not using synthetics were the advantages finally understood.
So maybe we just don't understand how to measure the difference. In the meantime I say don't use poison. Since many pay no attention to such heeding then the next best solution, in my opinion would be organics.
Yesterday I sat in on a new group of Master Gardener's Organic Gardening class. The instructor stressed not resorting to organic pesticides or herbicides unless there is no other solution.
Feeding the soil, growing healthy resistant plants,rotating crops so insect infestations were kept to a minimum, planning to include beneficial insects and even allowing for some damage to plants were all covered.
I would add that not growing the same annual vegetables year after year but trying something new would help.
Keep up the conversation, we will all benefit.