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Jeff Gillman on Organic Dogma


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Layanee said,

Monday, March 24. 2008 at 12:15 (Link) (Reply)

I have your book, Jeff, and would like to thank you for a bit of common sense which seems to be sorely lacking in all phases of our society.
Natalie said,

Monday, March 24. 2008 at 13:07 (Reply)

It's surprising how many people think "natural" means not as dangerous (an not just for gardening). Arsenic will kill you just as quickly as a synthetic poison, and it's "all natural."
Nancy Bond said,

Monday, March 24. 2008 at 13:02 (Link) (Reply)

I enjoyed reading Jeff's perspective, a representation of both sides of the coin, so to speak. He makes some good points.
Tiffany said,

Monday, March 24. 2008 at 13:37 (Link) (Reply)

I am generally of the opinion that when you compare natural and manmade....nature can whip man's booty any day of the week. I love to be challenged though. This sounds like a good read.
Kim said,

Monday, March 24. 2008 at 14:37 (Link) (Reply)

No question for Jeff here on the subject of absolute organics or being "anti-organic" if you are not absolute... because I am of a like mind. There is a little something too limiting to looking at this issue in black and white.

In a similar vein, I know that I have always admired the idea of planting natives, and have stayed away from planting anything that might be invasive or aggressive. But another side of me doubted the thought that planting natives ONLY was a panacea for any of our modern day ills as some would make it out to be.

When I first read "Planting Design: Gardens in Time and Space" by Noel Kingsbury and Piet Oudolf, they address this issue in several places. My favorite one is when they say, in reference to the concepts of ecological and naturalistic planting:
"... these are aspects of our work. We do not wish to elevate them to the status of religious virtues or absolute truths." They argue that they do feel, however, that these concepts should INFORM their work, sometimes to a greater degree and sometimes to a lesser degree.

This more pragmatic approach really resonated with me, and gave voice to the things I was feeling. I would think that you could talk about the "concept" of "gardening with organics" (not the same as gardening organically, by the way) the same way--at least, for me. For example, I admit that I've used Holly-Tone for a couple of key plants when maybe I could have just used compost... but, darn it, I would rather maximize my blueberry production in my garden than to buy bagged frozen ones shipped in from somewhere else!

So, Jeff... since I've gone off in a tangent, any thoughts you want to share for us on the native vs. non-native issue?
Benjamin said,

Monday, March 24. 2008 at 16:47 (Link) (Reply)

But are we too reliant upon chemicals in the first place? And have we created a culture-- human and plant--where we simply have to use them, and even to cut back or minimize the use will hamper plant growth and the crops to sustain animals / people? This whole conversation also makes me think about crops that have been genetically altered, how they grow, how they harm insect populations, how they might also harm humans as who knows what builds up in the body.
jodi DeLong said,

Monday, March 24. 2008 at 18:49 (Link) (Reply)

Excellent post, Jeff. You're a voice of reason in a world that is too quick to run to dogma and didacticism at any opportunity. I got my hands on your books and am reading them gleefully, with an intent to review them in our provincial newspaper if possible.
Here's a couple of questions for you: have you had any backlash from the so-called "plant gurus" that you talk about in the book on plant remedies?
And with all the scary-making talk about problems with the world's food supplies, (and Big Chemical still insisting that they've got the answers), are you seeing large-scale growers making more of an effort to go to IPM (Integrated Pest Management, for those who don't know) or are they tending to stick with what they've always done? I've been poking around a wee bit in my province, talking to farmers, and some are making a real effort to go IPM or and reduce chemical use as much as possible. But it can be a challenge for large-scale growers, and as you point out organic remedies aren't necessarily any better for us and fellow creatures than the chemical solutions.
Jeff Gillman said,

Monday, March 24. 2008 at 21:30 (Reply)

So let's see here...

First the native non-native issue. As with organics I'm not a purist, but I do believe in using native plants as a general rule (I've planted plenty of both). It's not because natives perform better than introduced plants -- they may or they may not depending on the situation -- but instead because I like the idea of maintaining native ecosystems as much as possible -- just because they're unique in and of themselves.

In terms of Benjamin's question...darn straight we use too many chemicals! The way I see it most overuse of chemicals is because they're being used to maintain aesthetics -- why can't a rose have a little blackspot? Nature intended it this way. In my opinion we should leave problems that are primarily aesthetic alone unless they're actually threatening the life of the plant. In terms of genetically altered plants. There are certainly some problems here, but I think that most of them have to do with the danger of altered crops breeding with common weeds to form weeds that are resistant to our attempts to control them. I'm not particularly worried about eating these crops or about the effect of these crops on insect populations...at least not yet.

Jodi, I don't catch much flak from the personalities -- they mostly leave me alone. But I do catch some from the companies that produce some of the things that I write about. Sometimes they'll say "yes, but you haven't tried mine" and sometimes they'll just tell me I'm a dumba-- (In so many words...). Your question on IPM is a good one. I see large producers as very conscious of the chemicals they use. Chemicals are expensive and most growers prefer to avoid them as much as possible. I really don't see this as a new thing though. People have been trying to reduce pesticide and fertilizer use for years -- It's just that new chemicals and methods make recent efforts to reduce chemical use more effective.

I'll be happy to answer any follow-ups and check this site again tomorrow morning.

Jeff
Pam/Digging said,

Monday, March 24. 2008 at 23:23 (Link) (Reply)

I'd love to know Jeff's thoughts on natural citrus oil herbicides versus man-made herbicides like Round-Up. I've yet to try the citrus oil, and I do resort to Round-Up on my super tough weeds, so I'm curious about the efficacy and safety of the organic choice.
Yolanda Elizabet said,

Tuesday, March 25. 2008 at 07:34 (Link) (Reply)

Thanks for this wonderful post Jeff, very informative. I like your practical, down to the ground, no nonsense approach. I have a relative new garden, only 3 years old, and so far I've gotten away with using NO pesticides whatsoever. I garden organically and am trying to make my garden as ecofriendly as possible so that all my garden friends (birds, hedgehogs, frogs, toads, newts, ladybirds etc.) come to stay and keep the pests under control. I grow a lot of roses and do NOT spray them, ever! A little blackspot is no real problem, I just remove the affected leaves by hand and that's that. For me harmony is the name of the game, not perfection.

Thanks for being the voice of reason in this sometimes crazy world of organic gardening!

And thanks Colleen for letting Jeff do a guest post on your blog!
Phillip said,

Tuesday, March 25. 2008 at 09:03 (Link) (Reply)

Very interesting - I try to be as organic as possible but I do use chemicals at times. I'm currently taking a Master Gardener class and about all they recommend are chemical controls, which is frustrating.
Jeff Gillman said,

Tuesday, March 25. 2008 at 09:55 (Reply)

Thanks to all of you for writing. It's a lot of fun for me too.

Natural herbicides are fine as long as you understand their limitations. Clove oil is probably the best, but the others (garlic oil, vinegar, citrus) will all work. None will be as effective as Round-up. The thing is, all of these poisons are contact poisons -- they kill what they hit and that's it. If only one leaf is hit then you just killed one leaf. For small annual weeds this is fine, but try to control poison ivy vine, buckthorn, Japanese honeysuckle, or a large thistle and you're asking for many repeated applications before you kill the weed.

I'm glad to hear about your garden Yolanda. It sounds like your doing it all by hand which is great. Some people can't manage this for a variety of reasons (garden is too large, time, physical limitations) but for those who can it's the way to go. It's healthy, provides exercise, and avoids the use of chemicals which should always be seen as a last resort.

Hi Phillip, I teach the pesticide section of the Master Gardener Class here in Minnesota -- and to be honest I concentrate on the chemicals too -- though I'm starting to do it less. The reason that I concentrate on the chemicals so much is that many of the Master Gardeners will be working on a question and answer hotline where people will call in and ask for advice, and most of them will want to use a poison. This isn't a good reason for me to relegate non-pesticide information to such a small portion of my talk and I'm trying to incorporate more non-pesticide remedies -- the problem is that pesticides are usually the easiest way to control pests (though not usually the best). This year I began prefacing all of my sections (insecticides, herbicides, fungicides) with non-chemical control methods which work (hand weeding, mulch, spraying insects off of plants, removing diseased plants, etc.).

Thanks for writing, I'll continue to follow this post to see if there are other questions.

Jeff
Gloria said,

Thursday, March 27. 2008 at 15:21 (Link) (Reply)

Jeff , first I must admit that I have not read any of your books. That will soon be remedied though as reading the interest on garden blogs has me curious.
I agree with you that a pesticide is a killer how ever defined and I never use them prefering to toss the plant if non toxic remedies do not make a solution.
But I do not trust synthetic remedies and if others are going to persist in using pesticides I do prefer they stick to organics.
Why? The scientific community could not fiqure why organic gardening was succesful until recent advances in understanding soil biology. Testing consisted of growing in similar mediums with organic or synthetic fertilizers with synthetics winning out in such short term testing. Only after years of adding organic matter and not using synthetics were the advantages finally understood.
So maybe we just don't understand how to measure the difference. In the meantime I say don't use poison. Since many pay no attention to such heeding then the next best solution, in my opinion would be organics.

Yesterday I sat in on a new group of Master Gardener's Organic Gardening class. The instructor stressed not resorting to organic pesticides or herbicides unless there is no other solution.

Feeding the soil, growing healthy resistant plants,rotating crops so insect infestations were kept to a minimum, planning to include beneficial insects and even allowing for some damage to plants were all covered.
I would add that not growing the same annual vegetables year after year but trying something new would help.

Keep up the conversation, we will all benefit.

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